ARTFORUM — A WOMEN’S WORK IS NEVER DONE — MAY 2024 — CONVERSATION WITH VAGINAL DAVIS

FOR THIS ISSUE, ARTFORUM HAS INVITED FASHION DESIGNER RICK OWENS TO TALK WITH RENAISSANCE WOMAN VAGINAL DAVIS ON THE OCCASION OF “MAGNIFICENT PRODUCT,” AN OVERVIEW OF THE ARTIST’S DECADES-LONG CAREER OPENING AT THE MODERNA MUSEET IN STOCKHOLM ON MAY 17. THE SHOW, ORGANIZED BY HENDRIK FOLKERTS, THE MUSEUM’S CURATOR OF INTERNATIONAL CONTEMPORARY ART AND HEAD OF EXHIBITIONS, WILL UNFOLD ACROSS FIVE OTHER VENUES WITHIN THE CITY: ACCELERATOR, STOCKHOLM UNIVERSITY; INDEX–SWEDISH FOUNDATION FOR CONTEMPORARY ART; MODERNA DANSTEATERN (MDT); NATIONALMUSEUM; AND TENSTA KONSTHALL. THE PRESENTATION WILL HIGHLIGHT THE ARTIST’S WORK IN VIDEO, MUSIC, PERFORMANCE, PUBLISHING, PAINTING, SCULPTURE, PHOTOGRAPHY, COLLAGE, AND INSTALLATION. DAVIS AND OWENS, WHO HAVE BEEN FRIENDS FOR MORE THAN FORTY YEARS, DISCUSS ART, FAGGOTRY, SEX, AMBITION, AND LOS ANGELES, WHERE THE FORMER (NOW BASED IN BERLIN) AND THE LATTER (WHO CURRENTLY RESIDES IN PARIS) SPENT THEIR EARLY DAYS. —ALEX JOVANOVICH

RICK OWENS: DO YOU REMEMBER THE FIRST TIME WE MET?

VAGINAL DAVIS: OH, YES, I DO. YOU WERE DOING WORK WITH THIS BAND CALLED, I THINK, RED WEDDING? DO YOU REMEMBER THEM?

RO: I DO.

VD: I FORGOT EXACTLY IF YOU WERE MAKING COSTUMES FOR THEM OR DESIGNING SOMETHING FOR THEIR STAGE SHOWS.

RO: I WASN’T. I WAS FUCKING THE SINGER.

VD: HA! THAT’S HOW WE FIRST MET, THROUGH RED WEDDING. I THINK IT WAS AT ONE OF THEIR SHOWS, AND I WAS WEARING AN OUTFIT WHERE I WAS SORT OF COPYING ONE OF MY MOTHER’S LOOKS. SHE WAS DOING UNDERWEAR AS OUTERWEAR WAY BEFORE JEAN-PAUL GAULTIER.

RO: THAT’S SO FUNNY. I DON’T REMEMBER THAT AT ALL.

VD:WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER, SWEETIE?

RO: I REMEMBER [PHOTOGRAPHER] RICK CASTRO SAYING, “LET’S GO TO THE MOVIES, WE’RE GOING TO TAKE VAGINAL DAVIS WITH US,” AND ALL THREE OF US WENT TO THE BEVERLY CENTER [IN LOS ANGELES]. I CAN’T REMEMBER WHAT WE SAW, BUT THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME WE HUNG OUT. BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, AT SOME POINT, YOU TRANSFORMED: YOU BECAME SCARY AND AGGRESSIVE WITH ME, JUST TO SHOW ME HOW YOU COULD CHANGE AND BECOME ANOTHER PERSONALITY. YOU ACTUALLY WERE REALLY SCARY, BECAUSE YOU’RE SO BIG. YOU WERE PLAYING, OF COURSE, BUT YOU WERE STILL SCARY.

VD: WELL, I AM A GHETTO GIRL.

RO: YEAH, I KNOW. BUT I REMEMBER SAYING TO MYSELF, “WOW, THAT’S CONVINCING. . . .”

VD: I WAS PROBABLY GOING INTO ONE OF MY OTHER IDENTITIES: BUSTER BEAUTÉ, MY DRAG KING PERSONA.

RO: IT WAS SUPER-BUTCH AND SUPER-SCARY.

VD: THAT CHARACTER IS THE ONE I WAS CHANNELING WHEN I DID THE [1996 BRUCE LABRUCE] MOVIE HUSTLER WHITE.

RO: YEAH. I REMEMBER SOMEONE USING WHITE-BREAD WRAPPING FOR A CONDOM IN THAT MOVIE. IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED?

VD: YES. WONDER BREAD.

RO: SO THIS EXHIBITION OF YOURS, WOULD YOU CALL IT A RETROSPECTIVE?

VD: OH, IS IT A RETRO-SPECTACLE? WELL, THE CURATOR, HENDRIK [FOLKERTS], HE WANTED TO DO SORT OF WHAT THEY CALL A SURVEY. I REALLY DID NOT LIKE THAT TERM, SURVEY. I’M ANCIENT, OF COURSE, BUT NOT ANCIENT ENOUGH FOR A SURVEY. AND IT WOULD’VE BEEN TOO DIFFICULT TO DO A PROPER ONE IN SUCH A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, SO I GUESS THE SHOW’S A REVISIT OF THINGS.

RO: WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO BE SHOWING?

VD: THE MAIN FOCUS OF THE EXHIBITION IS AT THE MODERNA MUSEET. ONE OF THE THINGS I’LL BE DOING THERE IS RE-CREATING A VERSION OF THE PACIFIC CINERAMA DOME [IN LA]. IT’S GOING TO BE A MULTIPLEX WITH SOME OF MY FILMS PLAYING. I’M DEDICATING IT TO MY LESBIAN COUSIN KARLA DUPLANTIER, WHO RECENTLY DIED. SHE WAS THE DRUMMER FOR THE CONTROLLERS, A PUNK BAND. I’M ALSO GOING TO RE-CREATE MY APARTMENT GALLERY, HAG. DO YOU REMEMBER HAG?

RO: I TOTALLY DO. YEAH.

VD: AT 7850 SUNSET BOULEVARD, LA VILLA ROSA. YOU WERE AT THE FIRST OPENING. YOU EVEN SHOWED WORK THERE. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

RO: I DON’T. WHAT DID I SHOW?

VD: YOU MADE THESE PAINTINGS THAT WERE BEAUTIFUL. THEY SOLD, TOO. I WAS ALWAYS SHOCKED WHEN THINGS SOLD, BECAUSE I’M NOT A GALLERIST.

RO: I DON’T THINK I EVER GOT PAID.

VD: I DID PAY YOU! YOU DIDN’T GET VERY MUCH, BUT YEAH, YOU GOT PAID. ALICE BAG HAD A SHOW THERE. AS DID GORILLA ROSE, WHO WORKED AT THE SOAP PLANT [NOW SOAP PLANT/WACKO]. CHARLES LEDRAY, WHO’S A HUGE ARTIST NOW, HE HAD AN EXHIBITION THERE TOO. AS DID MARI KONO. OH, AND THE FIRST SHOW WAS WITH DREW BARRYMORE’S FATHER, JOHN DREW BARRYMORE. HE LIVED NEXT DOOR TO ME WITH ALL THESE TIRED DEATH ROCKERS. HE MADE THESE ASSEMBLAGES FROM HYPODERMIC NEEDLES AND DEAD ROACHES. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

RO: YEAH, I DO REMEMBER SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.

VD: OH MY GOD. MY OPENINGS AT HAG WERE INCREDIBLE BECAUSE IT WAS SUCH A SMALL SPACE. YOU COULDN’T HAVE AN ATTITUDE. YOU HAD TO BE FRIENDLY. PEOPLE ALWAYS MET THEIR SIGNIFICANT OTHERS—BOYFRIENDS, GIRLFRIENDS, WHATEVER—THERE. THEN I HAD THESE AMAZING PARTIES AT HAG, AND I GOT ALL THIS GREAT PRESS BECAUSE BACK IN THOSE DAYS, PEOPLE DIDN’T HAVE HOME GALLERIES. THAT BECAME A TREND IN THE EARLY ’90S, BUT AT THAT TIME, IN THE ’80S, PEOPLE WEREN’T DOING IT, SO IT BECAME KIND OF A THING.

RO: YOU’VE DONE A LOT OF DIFFERENT PROJECTS IN YOUR LIFE. WHENEVER I GET ASKED TO DO A PROJECT, I ALWAYS THINK OF IT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO PROMOTE MY VALUES:

A REJECTION OF THE OPPRESSIVE INTOLERANCE THAT I EXPERIENCED GROWING UP. I’VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS A LOT RECENTLY: HOW DO I SUMMARIZE WHAT IT IS THAT I WANT TO PROMOTE, WHENEVER I’M GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY? HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT THAT? ABOUT SUMMARIZING WHAT YOU DO? BECAUSE IT’S NOT VERY FLATTERING, BUT WE ALL DO IT, SO I KIND OF SUMMARIZED MYSELF BEFORE ANYBODY ELSE COULD. HOW WOULD YOU SUMMARIZE YOURSELF?

VD: THANK YOU FOR SAYING THAT, BECAUSE I DON’T REALLY BELIEVE IN THE SOUND BITE. FOR ALL THESE MANY CENTURIES THAT I’VE LIVED ON THE PLANET, I REALLY HAVE DONE PRETTY MUCH THE SAME THING. I GUESS I’VE JUST TAKEN MY FORM OF ILLNESS—AND IT DEFINITELY IS AN ILLNESS—AND TURNED IT INTO SOMETHING. I THINK THAT’S THE ONLY WAY TO DESCRIBE IT.

I’VE ALWAYS BEEN A SICK TICKET, AND I DESCEND FROM A LONG LINE OF SICK TICKETS. AND WITCHES, AND VOODOO-HOODOO SWAMP WOMEN. MY MOTHER’S FROM LOUISIANA. SHE’S BLACK CREOLE. HER NAME WAS MARY MAGDALENE—THAT TELLS YOU A LOT RIGHT THERE. AND HER MOTHER, MAMA SARAH, WAS BORN ON A CHOCTAW INDIAN RESERVATION.

I COME FROM A LONG LINE OF THESE WITCHY-POOS, SO EVERYTHING THAT I’VE DONE IS ALWAYS FILTERED THROUGH THIS ILLNESS, BEING KIND OF OUT THERE IN A PARTICULAR WAY. I’M NOT TRYING TO BE PROVOCATIVE OR ANYTHING. PEOPLE THINK THAT I’M TRYING TO BE, BUT I’M NOT. IT’S JUST THAT EVERYONE ELSE TAKES IT AS A PROVOCATION. YOU’RE CONSISTENT, TOO, WITH ALL YOUR SEASONS OF WORK.

RO: BUT I DO KNOW WHEN I’M BEING PROVOCATIVE, AND I RELISH IT. I FEEL THAT I NEED TO BE SHOCKING, AND I NEED TO BE TRANSGRESSIVE, AND I NEED TO PROMOTE PERVERSITY. YOU DO TOO. YOU KNOW WHEN YOU’RE PUSHING BUTTONS, AND YOU DO IT DELIBERATELY. I KNOW THAT YOU MUST, BECAUSE YOU’RE A SMART GRANNY. WHEN YOU CALL YOURSELF “ILL,” YOU MEAN TWISTED. YOU HAVE A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE IN HOW YOU INTERPRET THE WORLD. IT’S DONE IN A VERY PERSONAL WAY THAT IS FUNNY AND LOUD AND POIGNANT, AND I THINK THAT’S WHAT YOU DO. THAT’S MY SOUND BITE FOR YOU.

VD: WELL, THANK YOU FOR THAT, DARLING.

RO: YOU’RE A FILTER. YOU’RE KIND OF A FASCINATING FILTER.

VD: A LOT OF IT COMES JUST THROUGH OSMOSIS. IT’S DONE VERY ORGANICALLY. A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT EVERYTHING I DO IS SPONTANEOUS, BUT THAT’S NOT REALLY THE CASE. BUT WHEN YOU’VE BEEN ALIVE AS LONG AS WE HAVE, YOU GAIN A LOT OF REFERENCES TO THINGS.

RO: NOT A LOT OF US. YOU’RE A REALLY LITERATE PERSON. YOU HAVE AMAZING REFERENCES. YOU’VE STUDIED, YOU’VE DONE YOUR RESEARCH.

VD: I WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN MY FAMILY FOR A LONG TIME WHO HAD GONE ON TO UNIVERSITY. AND I WAS LUCKY, BECAUSE I CAME ABOUT AT A TIME WHEN THERE WAS A SOCIAL CONSCIOUSNESS. THERE WERE A LOT OF PROGRAMS THROUGH THE LOS ANGELES UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT FOR UNDERPRIVILEGED PEOPLE. BOTH ME AND RON [ATHEY] WERE PART OF THE MGM PROGRAM, THE MENTALLY GIFTED MINORS PROGRAM, IN THE LA UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT.

RO: I FORGOT ABOUT THAT.

VD: YOU DIDN’T HAVE THAT, BECAUSE PORTERVILLE, WHERE YOU GREW UP, IS IN THE MID-PART OF CALIFORNIA, SO YOU’RE A DIFFERENT SCHOOL DISTRICT. BUT ME AND RON, WE BOTH GREW UP IN THE LA UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT, HIM IN POMONA AND ME IN MID-CITY LOS ANGELES, AND THERE WERE ALL THESE PROGRAMS. I GOT TESTED WHEN I WAS, I GUESS, IN THE FIRST GRADE, BECAUSE I COULD ALREADY READ BEFORE I STARTED SCHOOL. I WAS JUST SO HUNGRY FOR KNOWLEDGE. I USED TO DRIVE MY POOR OLDER SISTERS CRAZY BECAUSE THEY COULDN’T READ ENOUGH BOOKS TO ME. THEY WERE SICK OF IT, SO THEY TAUGHT ME HOW TO READ. BACK THEN, THERE WAS A GENUINE SOCIAL CONSCIOUSNESS, WHEN LIBERALS WERE REAL LIBERALS. THEY TRULY FELT LIKE GIVING BACK, INSTEAD OF ONLY GIVING THROUGH PHILANTHROPY JUST TO GET THEIR NAME ON A BUILDING. THINGS REALLY MEANT MORE BACK IN THE ’60S AND ’70S, THE SPIRIT OF ’68—I BENEFITED FROM ALL THAT.

I FEEL SORRY FOR YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY BECAUSE THERE ARE JUST NO JOBS FOR THEM. THE WHOLE CLIMATE IS FALLING APART, AND THE ONLY THING FOR THEM TO DO NOW IS TO BASICALLY BECOME COURTESANS THROUGH ONLYFANS AND WHATNOT. THAT’S THE ONLY THING LEFT FOR YOUNG PEOPLE NOW. IF THEY’RE EVEN REASONABLY ATTRACTIVE AND HAVE MUSCULATURE AND LARGE GENITALIA, THEY CAN USE THAT TO HAVE THIS CAREER AND GET MORE OF THE MONEYS TO FLOW DIRECTLY TO THEM INSTEAD OF THROUGH THE MIDDLEMEN. I SUPPORT THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THAT. I’VE HAD A LOT OF STUDENTS WHO’VE BEEN DOING THAT. THEY’RE MODERN-DAY COURTESANS, LIKE GRETA GARBO AS CAMILLE. WE WERE THE LAST GENERATION THAT HAD CHOICES, AND I WAS ABLE TO GO TO THE UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, LOS ANGELES. I WAS THE FIRST ONE IN MY FAMILY TO DO SO. I HAVE A GREAT-NEPHEW AND A GREAT-NIECE: ONE WENT TO UNIVERSITY AND BECAME A MUSICOLOGIST, WHILE THE OTHER BECAME A CHEMICAL ENGINEER. AFTER I WENT TO UCLA I WORKED THERE. REMEMBER WHEN UCLA WAS MY DAY JOB, SWEETIE?

RO: TOTALLY.

VD: AT UCLA’S PLACEMENT AND CAREER PLANNING CENTER. THAT’S HOW I WAS ABLE TO DO MY CRAZY ZINE, FERTILE LATOYAH JACKSON, BECAUSE I HAD ACCESS TO A XEROX. THAT WAS MY GRANT—MY DAY JOB I TREATED LIKE RECEIVING A GRANT, AND I HAD THAT XEROX MACHINE TO MAKE MY OWN CRAZY MAGAZINE, WHICH OF COURSE YOU AND MICHELE [LAMY, OWENS’S LIFE PARTNER] WERE IN, AND SO MANY OTHERS. IT’S FUNNY THAT PEOPLE ARE NOW INTERESTED IN THE ’80S WITH THE QUEER ZINE EXPLOSION AND WHATNOT, BECAUSE THERE WAS THIS ZINE SHOW AT THE BROOKLYN MUSEUM RECENTLY. MORE THAN FORTY YEARS HAVE PASSED, AND PEOPLE STILL HAVE AN INTEREST IN SOMETHING THAT WAS COPIED AND STAPLED BY HAND. IT’S INSANE.

RO: THOSE THINGS EVENTUALLY COME TO THE FOREFRONT, THE THINGS THAT WERE KIND OF SIGNIFICANT AND REALLY MADE A DIFFERENCE. I MEAN, THEY BECOME MORE OBVIOUS FORTY YEARS LATER WHEN YOU COMPARE THEM WITH EVERYTHING THAT’S BEEN DONE SINCE THEN.

VD: WHO KNEW? WHO WOULD HAVE THUNK THAT SOMEONE LIKE ME WOULD BE HAVING A SOLO SHOW AT A VERY PROMINENT MUSEUM? IF SOMEONE HAD TOLD ME ABOUT THAT HAPPENING FIFTEEN OR TWENTY YEARS AGO, I WOULD’VE LAUGHED IN THEIR FACE. I DIDN’T EVEN HAVE GALLERY REPRESENTATION UNTIL ABOUT TEN YEARS AGO. MY FIRST GALLERY WAS IN NEW YORK WITH INVISIBLE-EXPORTS—WHICH HAS TURNED INTO NEW DISCRETIONS, RUN BY BENJAMIN TISCHER—AND THEN, ON THE WEST COAST, WITH AMY ADAMS OF ADAMS AND OLLMAN. NOW I HAVE ISABELLA BORTOLOZZI HERE IN BERLIN, WHERE I LIVE. I NEVER THOUGHT THAT I WOULD BE REPRESENTED BY COMMERCIAL ART GALLERIES OR THAT PEOPLE WOULD ACTUALLY BUY MY INSANE MAKEUP PAINTINGS, MY INSTALLATIONS, MY CRAZY VIDEOS, AND ALL THAT STUFF. I COULD HAVE NEVER IMAGINED THAT HAPPENING, BECAUSE THOSE KINDS OF THINGS DON’T HAPPEN TO PEOPLE FROM MY CLASS. IT’S REALLY VERY SURPRISING. EVERY DAY, I’VE JUST BEEN SORT OF PINCHING MYSELF: “IS THIS REAL?”

RO: IT’S NOT SURPRISING.

VD: I’VE ACTUALLY FOUND A LITTLE BIT OF LOVEY-DOVEY IN MY LIFE, TOO—SOMEONE’S ACTUALLY SHOWN INTEREST IN ME. THAT’S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE, EITHER.

RO: IT’S NOT SURPRISING THAT YOU GOT ATTENTION, BECAUSE YOU WERE SO PROLIFIC. YOU WORKED AND WORKED AND WORKED AND PRODUCED AND PRODUCED AND PRODUCED. THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO JUST HAVE FIRE IN THEIR BELLIES. THAT WAS THE SAME WITH ME. I WAS GOING TO MAKE STUFF NO MATTER WHAT, AND YOU WERE THE SAME.

VD: YOU DID. THERE’S NO ONE MORE PROLIFIC THAN YOU. YOU WERE ALWAYS, ALWAYS WORKING.

RO: WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT YOU’RE MORE PROLIFIC THAN I AM. I MEAN, YOU, SINCE THOSE DAYS, YOU WERE DESTINED TO BE RECOGNIZED FOR WHAT YOU ARE. YOU WERE A POWERFUL CREATIVE FORCE, BECAUSE YOU JUST DID NOT STOP, AND YOU WOULD NOT SHUT THE FUCK UP. I MEAN, YOU WOULD NOT BE IGNORED, SO THAT’S WHY YOU’RE GETTING A MUSEUM SHOW, BECAUSE YOU WERE JUST WORKING ALL THE TIME. YOU DESERVE THAT.

VD: I HAD TO PUT ALL THAT SEXUAL FRUSTRATION SOMEWHERE. I WASN’T GETTING ANY SEX, SO I HAD TO PUT ALL THAT ENERGY SOMEWHERE.

RO: WHY WEREN’T YOU HAVING SEX? YOU TOTALLY COULD HAVE HAD SEX. WHAT WAS YOUR BLOCK, DO YOU THINK?

VD: I HAVE A LOT OF RELIGIOUS DAMAGE. WE ALL HAVE DAMAGE, OF COURSE. BUT I HAVE A LOT OF RELIGIOUS DAMAGE, BECAUSE WHEN I WAS A CHILD, I WENT TO THEOCRATIC MINISTRY SCHOOL.

RO: SO DID RON, HE HAD THAT TOO. RON HAD A LOT OF MINISTRY IN HIS LIFE, SO BOTH OF YOU HAD A HEAVY CROSS TO BEAR, SO TO SPEAK.

VD: COMPLETELY.

RO: HOW COME YOU DIDN’T GO TO THE MEAT RACK [A QUEER B/D SEX CLUB IN EAST HOLLYWOOD] WITH US?

VD: OH, I WENT TO THE MEAT RACK, HONEY.

RO: DIDN’T THEY EAT YOU UP?

VD: NO. WHENEVER I’D GO TO THE MEAT RACK, THE MEN WOULD SEE ME AND THEN GO THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION. BOTH ME AND [MUSICIAN] GLEN MEADMORE. OH, GOD, MISS MEADMORE. SHE’S EVEN WORSE THAN I AM. WE BOTH HAVE A QUALITY THAT KIND OF UPSETS MEN. IT WAS VERY FRUSTRATING TO DEAL WITH. MEN JUST DIDN’T TAKE TO ME. WHEN I WAS IN MY TWENTIES, I THOUGHT, “OH, WELL, I HAVEN’T MET ANYONE FOR A RELATIONSHIP, AND NO ONE’S INTERESTED IN HAVING SEX WITH ME, BUT I’M STILL YOUNG. IT’LL HAPPEN.” BUT THEN MY THIRTIES CAME, AND THEN MY FORTIES, AND STILL, NOTHING. THEN I REALIZED THAT, “WELL, NOT EVERYBODY’S MEANT TO BE PARTNERED, I GUESS, AND NOT EVERYONE IS MEANT TO HAVE A SEX LIFE,” BECAUSE IT JUST WASN’T HAPPENING. I’M THE KIND OF PERSON WHO JUST DELVES INTO OTHER THINGS. I WAS CONSTANTLY WORKING AND CREATING. IN A WAY, IT’S BEEN A SAVING GRACE.

RO: BUT YOU HAD FANS.

VD: HAVING THIS RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND—IT WAS ALWAYS SOMETHING THAT HELD ME BACK. IT WAS ALMOST LIKE HAVING A VAGINA DENTATA, WHICH WAS GOOD IN A WAY BECAUSE THAT KEPT ME FROM BEING TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF. BUT A LIFE WITH NO RISK IS NO FUN. AND SO MANY PEOPLE I KNEW WERE DYING OF AIDS BACK IN THE EARLY ’80S, WHICH WAS JUST TERRIFYING. I DIDN’T WANT TO GET ANYTHING THAT PENICILLIN COULDN’T CURE, SO I JUST REFUSED TO OPEN MYSELF UP AND LET SOMEONE IN.

WITH A PERSONA, IT’S EASY TO GRAB CUTE BOYS AND SAY, “LOOK, YOU’RE SO HOT, YOU’RE MY NEW BOYFRIEND.” BUT I GREW UP IN AN ALL-FEMININE HOUSEHOLD WITH ONLY SISTERS. THERE WEREN’T ANY MEN IN OUR WORLD AT ALL, AND MY MOTHER WAS A LESBIAN, SO I HAVE THIS THING WHERE I’M SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO MEN, BUT I DON’T REALLY LIKE THEM. I HAVE VERY FEW CLOSE MALE FRIENDS. YOU KNOW THAT ABOUT ME. I DON’T HAVE MANY MALE FRIENDS BECAUSE I DON’T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE MALE WORLD. THAT, I THINK, IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I HAVEN’T CONNECTED WITH ANYONE UNTIL JUST RECENTLY. THIS YOUNG PERSON SHOWED AN INTEREST IN ME, AND BELIEVE ME, I WAS SHOCKED. I’M A SIXTY-THREE-YEAR-OLD LADY. AND HE’S TWENTY-EIGHT. WHAT AM I GOING TO DO WITH A TWENTY-EIGHT-YEAR-OLD?

RO: I CAN TELL YOU WHAT TO DO WITH HIM! BUT WHAT DO YOU THINK CHANGED? WHAT MADE YOU RECEPTIVE ALL OF A SUDDEN?

VD: I DON’T KNOW. I’M A NERVOUS NELLIE, LET’S PUT IT THAT WAY. I’M VERY CAUTIOUS, AND I’VE NEVER WANTED TO BE A FOOL FOR LOVE. I GUESS THAT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT, TOO, BUT YOU’VE GOT TO OPEN YOURSELF. YOU HAVE TO LET YOURSELF BE VULNERABLE, AND I GUESS I WAS WAY TOO AFRAID TO DO THAT. AND THAT’S JUST PART OF LIFE. YOU CAN’T JUST AVOID IT—YOU HAVE TO GET HURT. BUT ONE THING ABOUT NOT HAVING A SEXUAL LIFE ALL THESE YEARS IS THAT IT’S KEPT ME KIND OF YOUTHFUL, BECAUSE I HAVEN’T HAD THE SAME KINDS OF STRESSES AS OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE ALWAYS OUT LOOKING FOR LOVE AND GETTING INTO THESE DOOMED RELATIONSHIPS.

AVOIDING ALL THAT HAS KEPT ME, IN A CERTAIN WAY, INNOCENT AND YOUTHFUL. I’VE ALWAYS DONE THINGS DIFFERENTLY FROM EVERYBODY ELSE. IT’S NEVER BEEN ANY OTHER WAY.